进入“后新冠疫情时代”， 全球化发展面临着变局，需要全球共同努力不断开拓合作，促进经济增长和社会发展的新局。

当我们不得不面对疫情时，“韧性”的概念非常恰当地概括了我们所必须具备的品质，如今我们要做的是以更系统性的方式探索“合作”的概念。当下， 协同发展是大势所趋，能否切实开展深化、平等地合作，在当前来看应该是合作深入推进并实现互利共赢的关键。中欧论坛创始人、法国里昂商学院高级顾问高大伟先生在准备《中国与世界第二卷》期间，独家对话众多知名政客、学者、企业家，就疫情后的合作发展法则展开谈论。

近期我们将陆续推出为期十期的《合之道》系列访谈，继《竹之韧》后的在后疫情时代背景下的高端访谈。

马科斯·特洛伊乔
Marcos Troyjo

金砖国家新开发银行行长
President of the New Development Bank

巴西经济学家、政治学家、外交家。现任金砖国家新开发银行行长，曾任巴西经济部外贸及国际事务副部长。特洛伊乔先生也是美国哥伦比亚大学金砖四国实验室联合创始人兼主任。
Mr. Troyjo is a Brazilian economist, political scientist and diplomat. He is President of the New Development Bank. He served as Brazil's Deputy Economy Minister and Special Secretary for Foreign Trade and International Affairs. He co-founded and served as Director of the BRICLab at Columbia University. Q

高大伟：马科斯，非常开心来到这里，不用说，我们背后是繁华的陆家嘴。我们现在位于金砖国家新开发银行的总部。作为这个重要机构的领导，你每天都在践行着合作。那么我想问问你，马科斯，对你而言合作意味着什么？

DG:Marcos, it's really a great pleasure to be here. I don't want to comment on the backdrop. The backdrop is magnificent. We are at the headquarters of the New Development Bank. You lead this very important institution. And for you on a daily basis, you practice collaboration. But I wanted to ask you, Marcos, what collaboration means for you.

马科斯·特洛伊乔：非常感谢能有这次机会。合作，对我而言意味着协作，意味着齐心协力。在新开发银行，巴西、俄罗斯、印度、中国、南非，这些国家都是世界上最重要的新兴市场，都在追求更好的基础设施和可持续发展的机会，这为国际合作提供了一个至关重要的平台。尤其是在当下，我们面临着公共健康和经济上的挑战，而在我看来，目前的局势表明我们的国际合作还远远不够。所以，如果我们可以建立像新开发银行这样的多边发展机构，把不同的国家聚集在一起，就共同关心的问题进行合作，这就是体现合作、协作和齐心协力的价值的最佳实例。

MT: Thank you very much for the opportunity. Collaboration, for me, means cooperation. It means working together. And when you have, at the New Development Bank, countries as Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, some of the most important emerging markets in the world, looking for opportunities in infrastructure, in sustainable development, that creates a very important platform for international cooperation. Especially at the current juncture when we have challenges in health, when we have challenges in the economy, and it seems to me that the current juncture is featuring a deficit in terms of international cooperation. So, if we can have multilateral development institutions, such as the NDB, bringing these countries that are so different together to work on issues of common interest, that is the best practical example of the value of cooperation, collaboration and working together.

高大伟：是的。你刚刚提到了金砖国家，所以人们也经常称新开发银行为金砖银行。但严格意义上讲，它叫新开发银行，在名称里有“新开发”三个字。你认为在你所做的工作中，“新开发”这一概念意味着什么？

DG:Exactly. And you mentioned the BRICS countries. So, people call your institution the BRICS bank. But this is technically the New Development Bank, and in New Development Bank, there is “New Development”. And in your vision of your work, what does this notion of “New Development” mean?

马科斯·特洛伊乔： 的确，作为一所由新兴经济体建立的机构，我们是“新”的。但就我们的追求而言，“新”的概念还包含着很多不同的维度。其中之一就是要发展成一个更加成熟完善的机构。主权贷款很重要，但除此之外，还必须要有其他更具二十一世纪性质的金融服务，才能解决二十一世纪的问题。另外，我们在发展思维上也必须做到“新”。传统的发展方式是将实体基础设施和智能基础设施分开的。我认为在未来发展中，我们还会进一步创新，我们会把涉水卫生、铁路、能源等传统问题与其他元素结合起来，比如连通性和第四次工业革命的基础设施，为人才新时代提供了基建要素。如果可以做到这些，我们就能成为真正的新开发银行。

MT: It is true that we are new in the sense that it is an institution set up by emerging economies. But I think in terms of our ambition, becoming new has many other different dimensions. One of them, of course, has to do with becoming more of a complex and sophisticated institution. So, sovereign-backed loans are important, but there are other things, there are other financial services that are more of a 21st century nature that have to be offered to tackle 21st century problems. We must also have to be new in terms of new development thinking. There is a traditional approach to development that separates physical infrastructure from smart infrastructure. And I believe that going forward, we are going to be new in the ways that we can bring together problems that are traditionally classified as water sanitation, railroads, energy, but with other elements like connectivity, the infrastructure for the Fourth Industrial Revolution being there, providing the infrastructure elements for the new age of talent. If we are able to do that, then we are truly going to become a New Development Bank.

高大伟：谈到发展，人们自然就会想到进步。你认为合作是进步最重要的基础吗？

DG:Talking about development, clearly, one thinks about progress. Would you say that collaboration is the very foundation for progress?

马科斯·特洛伊乔： 是的，合作是进步最重要的基础之一，没有合作就难以取得进展。因为没有合作，首先限制了参与者的数量，其次也限制了地理范围。我的意思是，无论是否愿意，我们都生活在一个星球上。显然，当我们合作时，所做出的决策可能影响到数十亿的人。所以无论你来自怎样的文化背景、处于怎样的地理位置，都需要以主动、开放的姿态为共同关心的问题做出努力。

MT: It's one of them. It's very difficult to make headway without cooperation. First, because you limit the outreach of the number of players involved. And second, you end up limiting the very geographical scope. I mean, like it or not, we're living in one planet. And obviously, when we're working together, our decisions may impact billions of people. So, it's very important that no matter what your civilizational background is, what your geography is, that you're willing and open to work on those issues in which common interests can be shared.

高大伟：十分感谢我们能有这次交流，这是为“合之道”系列录制的。你本人、你的背景、你领导的新开发银行，都是合作时代的美好象征。非常感谢。谢谢。

DG:Thank you very much for this conversation. It has been done for a series whose name is A Time of Collaboration. And you, your background, and your institution, you are wonderful symbols of this time of collaboration. So, thank you very much. Obrigado.

马科斯·特洛伊乔：  谢谢，我很荣幸。新开发银行的宗旨就是合作。

MT: Thank you so much. It was my pleasure. The New Development Bank is all about working together.